"A Good Thing Happened in My Life, Therefore God"
I hear this kind of argumentation from believers all the time. Just the other day, someone told me that she was offered a job right out of college. A few years later, when she had to move to anther state, she was quickly offered another job. She said that she never had to interview for a job in her life, so Jesus had his hand on her and blessed her with those jobs.
Is that really good evidence that you have an omnipotent deity pulling strings for you???
As in other blog posts I have shared here, it is a fair question to ask, would you accept this same occurrence in the life of a believer of another deity (Allah, Gonesh, Ahura Mazda, etc) as evidence that their god is working to help them? If your answer is no, then why do you think it is good evidence for your god? Can't good fortune just happen sometimes?
And if good happening serves as evidence for the existence and intervention of a god, does it mean that when bad things happen it is evidence against the god's benevolence, intervention, existence? If another Christian prayed and had to interview, does Jesus care less about that believer? If a Christian prayed and interviewed and didn't get the job, does that mean there is no god? In my experience, believers reinterpret any outcome as something that their god is doing for their ultimate good somehow.
If every outcome serves as evidence that your god is real and doing something positive, it doesn't seem like you have any way to distinguish a world in which your god is real from a world in which your god is imaginary. The argument isn't actually "a good thing happened, therefore god". In reality, their argument is "anything happened, therefore god." Actually, to be safe, you probably want to throw in "anything (or nothing) happened, therefore god." At this point, there is no difference between your assessment that no matter what happens, your god was behind it and made it better than it might have otherwise been, and the assertion that you are going to believe that is true no matter what.
People of all different cultures and beliefs experience good things and bad things. When they experience bad things, the bad things could almost always be worse. You can flip the script on any of those scenarios listed above.
How can we interpret the outcome of the individual who got two jobs without applying or interviewing? She happened to be in the right place at the right time, made a good impression on the people who were hiring, and happened to choose a career that was in high demand in those markets. No supernatural intervention is necessary to explain this at all.
I hear this kind of argumentation from believers all the time. Just the other day, someone told me that she was offered a job right out of college. A few years later, when she had to move to anther state, she was quickly offered another job. She said that she never had to interview for a job in her life, so Jesus had his hand on her and blessed her with those jobs.
Is that really good evidence that you have an omnipotent deity pulling strings for you???
As in other blog posts I have shared here, it is a fair question to ask, would you accept this same occurrence in the life of a believer of another deity (Allah, Gonesh, Ahura Mazda, etc) as evidence that their god is working to help them? If your answer is no, then why do you think it is good evidence for your god? Can't good fortune just happen sometimes?
And if good happening serves as evidence for the existence and intervention of a god, does it mean that when bad things happen it is evidence against the god's benevolence, intervention, existence? If another Christian prayed and had to interview, does Jesus care less about that believer? If a Christian prayed and interviewed and didn't get the job, does that mean there is no god? In my experience, believers reinterpret any outcome as something that their god is doing for their ultimate good somehow.
- Got to work safely = god kept me safe and is blessing me
- Got in an accident, but it was a fender bender = god kept me safe and it was almost worse
- Got in an accident and injured = god saved my life and prevented serious injury
- Got in an accident and severe injury = god saved my life and opportunity to learn patience
- Got in accident and killed = god prevented her from extensive suffering, no more suffering in heaven
If every outcome serves as evidence that your god is real and doing something positive, it doesn't seem like you have any way to distinguish a world in which your god is real from a world in which your god is imaginary. The argument isn't actually "a good thing happened, therefore god". In reality, their argument is "anything happened, therefore god." Actually, to be safe, you probably want to throw in "anything (or nothing) happened, therefore god." At this point, there is no difference between your assessment that no matter what happens, your god was behind it and made it better than it might have otherwise been, and the assertion that you are going to believe that is true no matter what.
People of all different cultures and beliefs experience good things and bad things. When they experience bad things, the bad things could almost always be worse. You can flip the script on any of those scenarios listed above.
- Got to work safely = your god does not favor you or he would have given you a job with a shorter commute
- Got in an accident, but it was a fender bender = your god is punishing you with costly repairs and legal hassle
- Got in an accident and injured = your god could have prevented the accident, but wants you to suffer
- Got in an accident and severe injury = your god is practicing to kill you
- Got in accident and killed = a merciful god would have killed you in a less painful way
How can we interpret the outcome of the individual who got two jobs without applying or interviewing? She happened to be in the right place at the right time, made a good impression on the people who were hiring, and happened to choose a career that was in high demand in those markets. No supernatural intervention is necessary to explain this at all.
David,
ReplyDeleteIt is offensive to me that you use a small "g" when typing God for Yahweh/Jehovah or when you type "the Christian god".
With my Biblical Beliefs being that of Calvinism, I believe that if one prays and the answer is no, like not obtaining a job, or if the answer is yes, obtaining a job, then in either case, it is the Providence of God. You being reared in an Arminian Theological community, I do not expect you to understand or accept that. Also, when you speak about Jesus, which Jesus in the Scriptures are you speaking of? Yes, there is more than one Jesus in the Scriptures.
Your reasoning and doubts are directed more toward the Arminians, Wesleyans, Lutherans, and Catholics than to those of us who are Calvinistic. Your reasoning isn't even an argument for as us. Why? We accept that everything that occurs has already occurred and that we are living out the story that Jehovah wrote before the creation of the world. And the world isn't billions of years old, more like 8000 at the most. Plus, physical evidence proves many Biblical events. But, we all know that you will argue and not just accept fact as fact.
But, as for me, if God isn't real and The Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection are a lie, I will gladly go to my grave believing that. I will physically die knowing that The Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection are fact!
John,
Delete>>It is offensive to me that you use a small "g" when typing God for Yahweh/Jehovah or when you type "the Christian god".
I'm sorry this offends you. We have discussed this before. "God" is not a proper name. It's a category. My purpose in using the lower case "g" god when referring to the Christian god is to highlight the fact that the claims about that god's existence and actions in the world are no more credible than any other god claims. I'm sure this makes you uncomfortable, but it's true. Rather than being offended, it would be probably be a good exercise to think about why that is the case.
>>With my Biblical Beliefs being that of Calvinism, I believe that if one prays and the answer is no, like not obtaining a job, or if the answer is yes, obtaining a job, then in either case, it is the Providence of God. You being reared in an Arminian Theological community, I do not expect you to understand or accept that.
The more important question is "why do you believe what you believe?" People believe things that are mistaken. If you were mistaken and the things you believe about the Bible or your god were not true, how would you come to recognize it?
>>when you speak about Jesus, which Jesus in the Scriptures are you speaking of?
I was relaying the comment made to me by a Christian. Which Jesus do you think she was referring to?
>>Your reasoning isn't even an argument for as us. Why? We accept that everything that occurs has already occurred and that we are living out the story that Jehovah wrote before the creation of the world....
Fine. What reason do you have to believe that? Why should anyone accept that as true?
>>But, as for me, if God isn't real and The Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection are a lie, I will gladly go to my grave believing that.
I have no interest in believing things that are not true. That is your prerogative though.
David,
Deletethe only reply for you is this; all that you seem to want to do with your blog is tear down Christianity. Because of Christians, your place of employment came into existence because they believed in loving out what Christ taught. Because of Christians, you have a Nation to live in where you are free and not told how to conduct your life by the government. So, with your attempts of tearing down Christianity, how many friendships have you lost, or family has cut ties with you? Is it worth it? How many have you offended, knowingly or unknowingly, that seem to have walked away from you and have nothing to do with you? Is it worth it? Tearing down a belief system without a truthful reason of why that has put food on the table? Is it worth it? Calling Yahweh (Christianity/Judaism) or Allah (Islam) a god and offending those who know you who are Jewish, Islamic, or Followers of Christ; is it worth it? Blogging to tear down and not properly defend your beliefs; is it worth it?
My place of employment is a secular non-profit organization that had a religious history. Nothing in our work involves religion. We do not proselytize, nor do we force religion nor secularism on any of the beneficiaries in our programs. Participants in the countries where we work are welcome to practice whatever religion or non-religion they like. There is nothing inherent in helping people that religion is required to carry out that work. All one needs is caring empathy for other human beings. I have that and it has nothing to do with a prize at the end of my life, or a threat from an ancient invisible deity.
ReplyDeleteI have leveled criticisms at other religions on this blog too. As far as I'm concerned, all religions are baloney. However, Christianity is the one with which I'm most familiar and the one I encounter on a daily basis because it is pervasive in the culture where I live. It impacts me because believers in my country are influenced by these superstitious beliefs and cast votes that impact our government and laws for the worse in many cases.
With regard to the founding of this country, even though it is true that some of the founders were devout Christians, few of those who were believers in the Christian deity held to the same theology you hold to. Should you convert to Anglicanism because you live in a country that owes so much to Anglicans? Many of the key and most influential founding fathers in the US were deists. Should we all convert to deism? If someone does something good, does that mean that suddenly everything they think is true is actually true?
I am interested in what is true and what is not true. Your response here dodged every single one of my questions and challenges. I wonder why that would be...?
"My place of employment is a secular non-profit organization that had a religious history." --- May I remind you that your place of employment was FOUNDED by CHRISTIANS because of their LOVE for CHRIST. That organization would not exist without that devotion to CHRIST, PERIOD!!!
Delete"I have leveled criticisms at other religions on this blog too. As far as I'm concerned, all religions are baloney." ---Listen, Christianity is NOT a religion, but a lifestyle and relationship. Yes, the religions of the world are "baloney", which includes atheism.
I am interested in what is true and what is not true. Your response here dodged every single one of my questions and challenges. --- I believe that you have dodged all my questions for a long time. You have never been able to disprove what you say isn't true.
Look, you try your best to come across like a highly intellectual apologist...…...and you aren't doing a very good job of apologetics. Why? You will not answer any question that a Christian, Jew, or Muslim poses to you as to why you discredit Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah. Yes, all three trace back to Abraham. Yes, there is historical proof evidence, but you don't accept the historical facts of the Middle East. If you did, you would not be an Atheist. And David, it is obvious that you have never in your life truly embraced that Yahweh/Allah is real, or you would not be an apostate that will not give a true explanation as to why he has such hatred for Christianity.
I challenge you to tell the truth of your angst, or shut this blog down. Why? Your attack on Christianity through the blog, well, let's just say it is useless.
John you said,
Delete>>May I remind you that your place of employment was FOUNDED by CHRISTIANS because of their LOVE for CHRIST. That organization would not exist without that devotion to CHRIST, PERIOD!
I don't know why you are yelling at me in text with all caps. I have already addressed this issue with you a number of times. The beginnings of an institution do not mean that anyone who is a member of the institution in the future must necessarily subscribe to the beliefs and values. If that was true, by the same argument, we would both have to convert to deism because the chief architects of this country, in which we both enjoy citizenship, were deists.
>>Christianity is NOT a religion, but a lifestyle and relationship. Yes, the religions of the world are "baloney", which includes atheism.
So, maybe we need to start with defining the term religion. How do you define that word?
>>You have never been able to disprove what you say isn't true.
You are shifting the burden of proof. The question is not what I can disprove. You are the one who is asserting that a god exists. If I was to assert that you murdered a person, the burden of proof properly rests on me to prove that assertion, not on you. This is the reason we do not expect people who are accused to prove they are not guilty of crimes. Can you prove that your god is any more real than Thor, or Ahuramazda, or Allah, or any of the thousands of other gods men have believed exist?
>>You will not answer any question that a Christian, Jew, or Muslim poses to you as to why you discredit Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah.
What question have you asked that I haven't answered? I have answered the question about why I write these posts with each post I craft. The reasons are two fold. First, I believe these things are not true. Second, I believe these beliefs are based on wrong thinking and often lead to bad outcomes and wrong thinking in other facets of our lives. Millions of people have been killed and tortured and lived miserable lives because of religions, Christianity included.
>> You don't accept the historical facts of the Middle East. If you did, you would not be an Atheist.
Are you Muslim John?
>> it is obvious that you have never in your life truly embraced that Yahweh/Allah is real, or you would not be an apostate that will not give a true explanation as to why he has such hatred for Christianity.
That's what an apostate is, John. It's someone who believed at one time and no longer believes. I don't hate Christianity. I think it's an ancient religion with bad ideas that requires people to pretend things are true that are not true.
>> I challenge you to tell the truth of your angst, or shut this blog down. Why? Your attack on Christianity through the blog, well, let's just say it is useless.
John, you watch too many Christian movies. If this blog was ineffective, you wouldn't be rattled by it. You would also do better at responding to the things I have said here.
But you continue to provide me with content, so for that I thank you.
Cheers,
David
David,
Deleteall caps is not always yelling. I was taught that all caps are an emphasis, and nothing more.
Second, Jehovah and Allah are one and the same. One word is Jehovah and the other Arabic. Muslims, Jews, and Christians follow the same Creator God. Do you remember Isaac and Ishmael? Both received Jehovah's promise to their Father. From Isaac we obtained Judaism and from Ishmael we obtained Islam. Both are still searching for the Messiah (Hebrew). Christianity is the completed Judaism, or a better wording is Messianic Judaism. These believe that Yeshua Ben-David is the promised Messiah. Those who practice Islam or Judaism do not and are still awaiting the arrival of the Messiah. To get a better understanding, a Messianic Translation, such as The Tree of Life Version, may be of help. Also, speaking with missionaries that have spent most of their life in the Middle East can help understand this "religious" culture. Most of the Missionaries that have done so are Southern Baptist.
About religion. Religion is usually a strict set of rules that everyone has to abide by. A lot of Evangelical groups have that rule base with Bishops, Presbyters, etc. So, to me that is Religion, no local autonomy like Baptist Congregations. Sure, we as Southern Baptists are connected, but only Christ has authority and rule over each congregation. The congregation does not have to get "permission" like others. Our congregations are autonomous which is why I personally say what I do about religion. However, this is better; Godly religion, that is, biblical Christianity, is a matter of holy obedience to God’s Word—reflected, among other ways, by our honesty in regard to ourselves, by our selflessness in regard to the needs of others, and by our uncompromising moral and spiritual stand in regard to the world.
Christian Movies...…..really? I am not a movie person.
I have not dodged you face to face. However, you have dodged me here. What I want is to hear/see the reason why you say what you do. I can't call you an Apostate because I believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer. Because of that, my interpretation is that one that claims to have once been a "Christian" and now isn't, well, they truly never were.
When anyone claims that a belief system is false, the burden of proof is on that individual, and no one else.
J
My reply got too long for the comment section. I have turned the reply into a blog post of its own. You can find that post here.
Deletehttps://rungavagairun.blogspot.com/2019/03/response-to-reader-john.html
Two more thoughts.
ReplyDelete1. Many of the arguments I have posted here that came from Christians could be and are used by believers of other religions. This post is a perfect example of that. I have heard from Muslims and people of other faiths as well that they believe their prayers were answered by their gods and that they feel their gods working in their lives. As I explained in this post, you can attribute any event you want to any supernatural being you want. There is no way to disprove that you owe your current job to invisible elves, wood sprites, an elephant god, or Jesus. The question is, why should we believe that any of those beings is real or capable of going anything in anyone's life?
2. Think of all we owe in our culture to the ancient Greeks who believed in their Greek pantheon of gods. Does the fact that they had many good ideas (like democracy, philosophy, mathematics, etc etc etc) mean that we should believe that their gods are real? The point here is that someone can be right about one thing and wrong about a host of other things. If believing true things and disbelieving false things is something you care about, then you should weigh the evidence for each claim separately and not believe something because someone who did something nice or smart or whatever, believed it.