It has been a long time since I posted here in my blog. Sorry to anyone who was hoping for more regular content. Life happens, and I got busy with other matters. As much as I enjoy writing, it is time consuming, and other things have had higher priority. I have a little time today and had an interesting conversation with my dad, so I thought I would share it.
This past week, I traveled to my home state to visit with family. First, I want to say that I had a lot of fun seeing my dad and siblings and other family. We get along very well in general and always have a good time.
For those who may not know my story, my brother and I are both atheists (he goes by Turdle2080 on Google plus and YouTube, so I will refer to him here as Turdle), but everyone else in the family is a devout Christian. We were all raised as Christians, but Turdle and I both lost our faith. Turdle lost his faith while he was in his late teens or early 20s. I lost mine in my mid 30s. This fact has left a divide between us and the other members of the family. We interact peacefully, but there is always a barrier. There are things that we would like to say that we cannot say in order to maintain the peace, and I'm sure that the rest of the family feels the same way about expressing their religious (and political) views.
It was with this barrier in mind that I approached my dad one morning over breakfast when we two were the only ones at his house. We had some time that morning before we had to pick up my sister from the airport, so I knew that there would be a natural end to the conversation. I didn't want it to be a prolonged conversation. My intention was to simply talk to him about the fact that we do not choose our beliefs. Neither Turdle nor I made a decision to abandon our faith or belief in the god of the Bible. I suspected that Dad believed that we simply decided that we didn't want to believe anymore and ditched all of the things that our parents worked to ingrain into us. By the end of the conversation, I wanted my dad understand that my disbelief in the Bible and Christian theology was not something I chose.
And that was essentially how I opened the conversation. I explained to him that I spent years struggling with doubt. I fought against the doubt by seeking explanations from pastors and apologists, but finally came to the realization that I no longer believed.
I quickly learned that I was right and Dad did believe that we chose to not believe. I pointed to the fact that beliefs are formed in our mind for reasons. We can't will ourselves to change our beliefs. We are either convinced that something is true or we are not convinced. Our beliefs can change, but only after we have been exposed to new information or new reasons that we find more persuasive. I challenged my dad to think of something that he believes is true about the world; who is the current president, for example. I suggested that he try to decide to believe that someone else is the current president. Dad countered by suggesting that a belief related to a real human being in the world belongs to a separate category of belief. "That is a factual claim about the world that can be verified, and religious ideas are different." he said. I agreed that the proposition about who is president is a factual claim about the real world, but I said that the idea of whether or not a god or gods exist in the world, and which god or gods they are if they exist are also a factual claims about the world. Dad insisted that religious claims belong to a different category because they cannot be confirmed in the same way that claims like the existence of physical things and people and the relationships and titles we give to people and things.
I was tempted to jump on that point and say "EXACTLY! That is why there is no reason to believe religious claims. You can't verify them and there is no good reason to accept one set of religious claims over any other set of religious claims." But I held my tongue. That was not within the scope of this conversation. I only wanted to prompt him to think about the question of whether or not beliefs are a choice. I didn't want to start an argument on whether his religion is true. That is a much larger hurdle.
In spite of the fact that this issue is not a direct assault on the Christian religion, I could tell Dad was a little agitated. We don't determine for ourselves what we can and cannot believe. He started to through out questions that likely help shore up his own belief when doubts begin to creep in. "Where does morality come from if there is no god?" Obviously this is not germane to the subject of whether or not we can choose to believe. Nor is it even relevant when trying to determine if a god exists. Once again, I held my tongue, though I wanted to say "If Thor doesn't exist, where do you think lightning comes from?" I explained that morality comes from the same place as mathematics and medicine and government. We humans came up with it because it helps make our lives better.
When he told me that faith is required for the religious beliefs, I explained to him that I do not think that faith is a reliable way to get to truth. Faith is used by every religion. If faith is reliable, how could it be used to come to all of these different conclusions?
At that point, Dad suggested that I use faith as well. "Where do you think we came from? Do you think that given millions of years that you could go from nothing to us?" I told him yes. He then said that I arrived at that belief by way of faith. I told him that there was much evidence to support my belief in evolution. He said no there isn't. I'm really bad at allowing conversations to slide away from the topic at hand.
Anyhow, we both recognized that evolution was a rabbit hole that was way beyond the scope of that conversation. I tried to steer it back to the belief discussion. I asked him if he understood my position. Dad said he understood, but didn't fully buy into it. And he added that it seemed like I was trying to deny responsibility for my own actions. I should have explained to him that I was not concerned about the philosophical or moral consequences. I was concerned about what was true. We can't work our way backwards from what we want to be true or what would make things inconvenient and then decide that we ought to believe whatever we want. The fact that we can't simply decide to believe things that we don't believe is evident in the fact that we are not able to change our beliefs at will.
Instead of pursuing that line, I asked my dad if he believed that I was morally culpable or guilty for my doubt and disbelief. He didn't seem comfortable with that idea. I did explain that my primary concern was that he understand that both Turdle and I were saddened by the fact that this barrier exists, and that we were stuck with our disbelief until some additional information was presented to us in some way, such that our belief changed again. I don't recall exactly how the conversation wrapped up. It may be that we both acknowledged the time and that we had to get ready to leave to pick up my sister. In any case, we both expressed our love for each other and we ended with a hug.
I am toying with the idea of sending him a follow up email. I would like to send one thanking him for his hospitality while I was there. I would like to pursue a line of questions with my dad, partly out of curiosity and partly to challenge him to think through some of these things. I think the main question I would like to ask him is this. If the things you believe about the Bible and your god were not true, would you want to know?
Thanks for reading. Feel free, as always, to leave your thoughts and feedback.
Gavagai
This past week, I traveled to my home state to visit with family. First, I want to say that I had a lot of fun seeing my dad and siblings and other family. We get along very well in general and always have a good time.
For those who may not know my story, my brother and I are both atheists (he goes by Turdle2080 on Google plus and YouTube, so I will refer to him here as Turdle), but everyone else in the family is a devout Christian. We were all raised as Christians, but Turdle and I both lost our faith. Turdle lost his faith while he was in his late teens or early 20s. I lost mine in my mid 30s. This fact has left a divide between us and the other members of the family. We interact peacefully, but there is always a barrier. There are things that we would like to say that we cannot say in order to maintain the peace, and I'm sure that the rest of the family feels the same way about expressing their religious (and political) views.
It was with this barrier in mind that I approached my dad one morning over breakfast when we two were the only ones at his house. We had some time that morning before we had to pick up my sister from the airport, so I knew that there would be a natural end to the conversation. I didn't want it to be a prolonged conversation. My intention was to simply talk to him about the fact that we do not choose our beliefs. Neither Turdle nor I made a decision to abandon our faith or belief in the god of the Bible. I suspected that Dad believed that we simply decided that we didn't want to believe anymore and ditched all of the things that our parents worked to ingrain into us. By the end of the conversation, I wanted my dad understand that my disbelief in the Bible and Christian theology was not something I chose.And that was essentially how I opened the conversation. I explained to him that I spent years struggling with doubt. I fought against the doubt by seeking explanations from pastors and apologists, but finally came to the realization that I no longer believed.
I quickly learned that I was right and Dad did believe that we chose to not believe. I pointed to the fact that beliefs are formed in our mind for reasons. We can't will ourselves to change our beliefs. We are either convinced that something is true or we are not convinced. Our beliefs can change, but only after we have been exposed to new information or new reasons that we find more persuasive. I challenged my dad to think of something that he believes is true about the world; who is the current president, for example. I suggested that he try to decide to believe that someone else is the current president. Dad countered by suggesting that a belief related to a real human being in the world belongs to a separate category of belief. "That is a factual claim about the world that can be verified, and religious ideas are different." he said. I agreed that the proposition about who is president is a factual claim about the real world, but I said that the idea of whether or not a god or gods exist in the world, and which god or gods they are if they exist are also a factual claims about the world. Dad insisted that religious claims belong to a different category because they cannot be confirmed in the same way that claims like the existence of physical things and people and the relationships and titles we give to people and things.
I was tempted to jump on that point and say "EXACTLY! That is why there is no reason to believe religious claims. You can't verify them and there is no good reason to accept one set of religious claims over any other set of religious claims." But I held my tongue. That was not within the scope of this conversation. I only wanted to prompt him to think about the question of whether or not beliefs are a choice. I didn't want to start an argument on whether his religion is true. That is a much larger hurdle.
In spite of the fact that this issue is not a direct assault on the Christian religion, I could tell Dad was a little agitated. We don't determine for ourselves what we can and cannot believe. He started to through out questions that likely help shore up his own belief when doubts begin to creep in. "Where does morality come from if there is no god?" Obviously this is not germane to the subject of whether or not we can choose to believe. Nor is it even relevant when trying to determine if a god exists. Once again, I held my tongue, though I wanted to say "If Thor doesn't exist, where do you think lightning comes from?" I explained that morality comes from the same place as mathematics and medicine and government. We humans came up with it because it helps make our lives better.
When he told me that faith is required for the religious beliefs, I explained to him that I do not think that faith is a reliable way to get to truth. Faith is used by every religion. If faith is reliable, how could it be used to come to all of these different conclusions?
At that point, Dad suggested that I use faith as well. "Where do you think we came from? Do you think that given millions of years that you could go from nothing to us?" I told him yes. He then said that I arrived at that belief by way of faith. I told him that there was much evidence to support my belief in evolution. He said no there isn't. I'm really bad at allowing conversations to slide away from the topic at hand.
Anyhow, we both recognized that evolution was a rabbit hole that was way beyond the scope of that conversation. I tried to steer it back to the belief discussion. I asked him if he understood my position. Dad said he understood, but didn't fully buy into it. And he added that it seemed like I was trying to deny responsibility for my own actions. I should have explained to him that I was not concerned about the philosophical or moral consequences. I was concerned about what was true. We can't work our way backwards from what we want to be true or what would make things inconvenient and then decide that we ought to believe whatever we want. The fact that we can't simply decide to believe things that we don't believe is evident in the fact that we are not able to change our beliefs at will.
Instead of pursuing that line, I asked my dad if he believed that I was morally culpable or guilty for my doubt and disbelief. He didn't seem comfortable with that idea. I did explain that my primary concern was that he understand that both Turdle and I were saddened by the fact that this barrier exists, and that we were stuck with our disbelief until some additional information was presented to us in some way, such that our belief changed again. I don't recall exactly how the conversation wrapped up. It may be that we both acknowledged the time and that we had to get ready to leave to pick up my sister. In any case, we both expressed our love for each other and we ended with a hug.
I am toying with the idea of sending him a follow up email. I would like to send one thanking him for his hospitality while I was there. I would like to pursue a line of questions with my dad, partly out of curiosity and partly to challenge him to think through some of these things. I think the main question I would like to ask him is this. If the things you believe about the Bible and your god were not true, would you want to know?
Thanks for reading. Feel free, as always, to leave your thoughts and feedback.
Gavagai
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