Response Post: Religion Trail Taboo

A popular YouTube backpacking channel called Midwest Backpacker put out a video a couple years ago. I wasn't watching backpacking videos at that time, so I didn't see it when it was initially published, but I enjoy his content, and I have watched a number of his older videos.

Midwest Backpacker's facebook page

His trail name is "Almost", but his real name is Jeremy. I will refer to him here as Jeremy. Incidentally, if you are interested in learning about hammock camping and gear, Jeremy is a hammock camper. You could probably learn a good bit from his channel.

Like Jeremy, I also grew up in the Midwest. Jeremy is from Minnesota. I am from Wisconsin. He has far more experience on the trail and in the woods than I do. He also does a fair amount of winter camping, snow shoeing, and backpacking, which I find intriguing. It is a good channel and I have learned a lot about thru hiking by watching his content. So thank you for that Jeremy.

This is the specific video that inspired this post.

I don't mind the video. I think it is fine to have conversations about religion and even politics on the trail with friends or even strangers as long as you can keep things civil. If you are reading this blog, you are probably aware that I am an atheist. I like that Jeremy included a few different perspectives in his video, but he didn't include any atheist voices. I left a comment on the video inviting him to have a conversation with me, either as an addendum to his video for his channel or off the record for the purpose of mutual personal enrichment. He gave my comment a like, but has not reached out in any way. That's fine. He doesn't owe me anything, but I have some thoughts on the subject, and I would like to express them.

What my experience in the back country is like

Being in the forest and seeing some amazing natural beauty is an awesome experience. I feel a sense of wonder and awe when I see water cascading down the side of a mountain or when I am perched on the top of a mountain looking down over a vast landscape. There is a sense of peace when I hear creeks and rivers or the wind blowing through the trees. When I see lightning and thunder and it is pouring rain, I am mesmerized at the power in the storm.

I don't attribute the beauty of the natural world to a god for the same reason I don't attribute things that are ugly, gross, disgusting, or cruel in nature to an evil god, an invisible scary monster or demon. If I hear a noise in the forest and I don't know what made the noise, I don't assume it's bigfoot. Until there is evidence that a thing is real, it doesn't make sense to me to suggest that the thing we don't know exists could have caused something to happen. Until there is evidence that a ghost is real, a ghost is not a likely candidate for the bump I heard in the night. The same goes for gods and goddesses.

When I see natural beauty, I sit or stand back and think "wow, it has taken millions of years for the layers of those rocks to form and then millions more for water to erode them, exposing the layers to us. Amazing!" ...or "I wonder what causes this sensation I am experiencing when I see these moss covered rocks with water trickling down. Was there some evolutionary advantage for early humans who felt a sense of soothing and calm in scenery like this, or is that sensation the result of being in a location that is lush and green and probably fertile? I suppose my ancestors might have found relief in places like this where they could drink if they were thirsty, clean themselves, cook, and find some safety." I find no need to invoke supernatural beings related to those experiences.

Do religious conversations bother me?

I fully understand how people who believe that there is a god connect these experiences to their religious beliefs. I also understand their inclination to talk about their faith beliefs with other people on the trail. There are some circumstances were having those conversations may be annoying or bothersome, but if done with sincerity and respect, I actually enjoy having discussions about religion. If you don't believe me, look back through my blog and/or my YouTube channel. Because religious belief systems are central to people's identity, they are often wrapped up in emotion. If emotions flare on the trail, it can diminish the experience that we probably all hope will be relaxing and peaceful.

Here are some guidelines I think would be helpful as guardrails to keep the conversations enjoyable and reduce the likelihood that things will spiral into an emotional or angry interaction.

Unrelenting conversation

I fully understand that people are passionate about their faith beliefs, but you are going to have to give it a rest at some point. We can probably pick things up again later if we have been having a lengthy conversation, but I am going to need to take some breaks.

I will admit, I have undoubtedly been guilty of pushing to extend conversations beyond what my interlocutor desires. I am striving to do better at this myself. The conversation needs to have two willing participants. Make a concerted effort to let up when your fellow trail traveler is worn down and no longer interested in carrying on the conversation. Give people time to process what has already been said.

One way conversation

Conversations are two way streets. I promise I will do my best to listen to what you have to say and engage with what you have said, but please listen to what I have to say and actually engage with my responses. I am likely to ask questions to probe your thoughts and information. Please reciprocate. Asking questions to probe the other person's beliefs, experiences, and reasoning is a great way to help them uncover flaws in their reasoning. It could be that you uncover some gross misstep in my efforts to map out what is real and what is not real in the world. Allow me the space to respond to your thoughts with my own and perhaps you can illuminate where I went wrong. I will be grateful for the correction. But if you don't hear what I have to say, odds are you are not actually addressing my reasoning. You will miss your target if you are aiming to change my beliefs or at least to influence my thinking.

Transition to preaching

If you have switched from a dialogue to simply preaching at me and listing all of your talking points without giving me any opportunity to join in the conversation, I have no interest in being preached to. If I wanted that, I could just go to church and sit quietly in a pew. Haha.

I had a friend who, like me, was a Christian for most of his early life. We didn't know each other growing up, but we traveled a similar path to the point when we met at a church where we both brought our families. We also both separately shed our faith and became atheists. My family moved away so we disconnected for several years. We reconnected through Facebook a few years later and discovered we had arrived at many of the same conclusions. However, this friend went through a patch of serious depression. He lost his job. His marriage of a couple decades came to an end. He returned to his faith ...with burning zeal.

At some point, he decided he wanted to meet with me to have a conversation. He drove 4 hours or so to the city/state where I currently live and we met for a long lunch. The conversation started out fine. There was give and take. We both challenged each other and shared thoughts and ideas and experiences. But at some point, things changed and my friend became frustrated that the conversation was not going the way he wanted it to go. He began condemning me, calling me a fool, a bad husband and father, etc. He became outright hostile. It was sad and gross. Don't do that.

From my perspective, this transition was the result of my friend's position collapsing under its own weight. His reaction was emotional, rooted in fear or anger or both. It wasn't persuasive to me at all. Regrettably, that friend decided to block me on Facebook shortly after that conversation. This is the kind of experience you definitely want to avoid on the trail.

Arrogance

I want to be clear, Jeremy did not come across this way at all, but the tone of a couple of his fellow Christians in that video, did come across that way to me. It's largely about the framing of the conversation.

I know you believe the things you believe because you are convinced they are true. I get it. If we have differing views on religion, you think you are right and that I am wrong. Referring to nature as creation smuggles in the assumption that it was created. You are asking me to assume your perspective out of the gate. Worse, asserting that it is "undeniable truth" is belittling of my intellect and/or my integrity. If these conclusions are so obvious as to be undeniable and I don't accept them as true, where does that leave me? It suggests that I am either dishonest and lying about the way I see things, or too dense to apprehend the truth.

I grew up in the church and I am familiar with the "the fool has said in his heart there is no god." scripture. It frequently comes up in these conversations. If you think I am a fool, why are you engaging with me? Why would you go backpacking with a fool? If you get in trouble on the trail, you wouldn't want to rely on a foolish person to help you. A foolish companion in the backcountry could even be a risk to your safety. If you genuinely think I'm a fool, it's probably best to steer clear.

If you bring up the "fool has said..." scripture, how does that advance the conversation? Do you think I'm going to hear that and suddenly decide I had better start believing that your god is real? Imagine a person who could be convinced to change their mind because another person told them they would be foolish not to believe something. That would be a rather silly reason to change what you believe, wouldn't it? The only person who probably finds that compelling is someone who already believes the Bible has legit authority and insight, and who therefore believes in his heart that there is a god. Not super helpful in this context.

A better way to frame the conversation

Instead of opening with "this is the undeniable truth," consider adding "from my perspective, this seems undeniable". It's a small difference in the the tone, but doesn't imply that anyone who sees things differently is either stupid or being dishonest.

If you are actually convinced that people who have reached other conclusions about the existence of a god are being dishonest, I would say

1. you need to make some atheist friends
2. actually have conversations with them and get to know them as people

And that is a great reason to have conversations about religion on the trail! We can learn things from each other and grow in our understanding of the world we inhabit and the people with whom we share it. As a side note, I really believe that these conversations can be helpful and productive for everyone involved if we approach them with a grain of humility.

Making assumptions or assertions about what you think I believe

Please don't start telling me what I do or don't believe. I have had many conversations where my theist interlocutor has initiated the conversation like that. "You believe something comes from nothing." or "Atheists believe [x]." I am right here. Ask me if I believe those things. Maybe it's right. Maybe it's not. How many atheists have you met and engaged with? This is your chance to get it straight from a genuine atheist.

On that same note, just because I say one thing, doesn't mean another atheist will agree with me. So if you speak to someone else who identifies as an atheist, you will need to ask them what they believe (or what they don't believe). The only thing I may have in common with another person who self-identifies as an atheist is that we don't accept claims that a god or gods exist. You may even encounter people who call themselves atheists who define atheism in a very different way. Deal with the person on their own terms. Please don't try to impose your definitions and understanding of what any person believes or understands. Deal with each person on their own terms. Likewise, I will do my best not to assume I know what you believe because I was once a believer or because I have had conversations with other believers. Your experience and understanding of your god and religious doctrines, etc are likely different than mine and probably different than other people with whom I have previously conversed.

What is your goal in the conversation?

I have experienced many great, thoughtful, and thought provoking conversations with theists of various stripes. But I have also had frustrating and unproductive conversations where my interlocutor exhibited each of the behaviors I have outlined above.

In the end, you can engage however you want. I guess the question hinges on what your goal is. If you want to declare yourself right and me (or whoever disagrees with you) wrong, that you have the high ground from a philosophical or intellectual or supernatural/magical perspective, and that is satisfying for you, knock yourself out, but I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded by such pronouncements, and that kind of conversation doesn't interest me at all.

On the other hand, if you are actually interested in an honest conversation where we both engage with the other person's thoughts and ideas and were we recount the methods and thought processes by which we arrived at the philosophical or religious conclusions we have reached, I am keenly interested in those discussions. Proceed with questions rather than declarations. Ask with the intention of hearing my answer and considering what I have to say. I will do the same. We can have an amazing time on the trail that way and learn from each other.

Obviously, this post touches two of my favorite subjects, philosophy and backpacking. Thanks for indulging me. Jeremy, if you ever read this and you are interested in having a conversation, reach out. I have a YouTube channel, and I sent your Midwest Backpacker Facebook page about the topic. If not, I have said what I felt I wanted to say here.

This article will publish on April 1st, "April Fools Day". Some apologists and preachers call it "Atheist day", nodding to the "fool has said in his heart" passage. I thought about publishing it on a different day, but I decided to roll with it. Happy atheist day, I suppose. Haha. It is one thing to assert that a person is foolish. It is another thing to demonstrate it.

Cheers,

Gavagai